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Hi Johan,

Your comments are very long and hard to follow. I’ll address some of your key points.

Documentaries are not scientific evidence. I have used scientific research to back up my analysis. You have relied solely on your subjective ideas, which are coloured by your belief that women do not belong in science. That you say your sisters tried STEM and didn’t like it has zero bearing on the institutional patterns and data that I’ve discussed.

Professionals regularly visit schools, from members of the police, to community workers, to scientists and beyond. Science curriculum is filled with examples of male scientists, and there is a lack of women role models because many teachers are not trained to examine their own gender biases in how they teach science. We know from research that when girls interact with professional women scientists, this helps them see that they too can have a career in science. We also know from international research that girls perform the same as boys in maths, science and engineering subjects, and in some cases, they outperform boys. Lack of role models and negative experiences that have discouraged girls from pursuing STEM is an outcome of institutional sexism. Again, see the extensive research, which shows that programs that involve women scientists as part of the solution, working together with parents and teachers, helps to improve outcomes for girls in STEM.

Do you have such an adverse reaction when male professionals go into schools?

Point me to specific biological research that shows that girls are inferior at STEM or are somehow innately disinterested in science. I have linked to an article I co-authored with my colleagues, both biologists, showing that no such research exists.

There are many examples of women who have excelled in science throughout history and across cultures; however, due to sexism, these women’s achievements are slow to be recognised.

We already know that there is greater gender balance in some STEM fields, such as health sciences; however, this parity disappears as soon as we start seeing the data on senior research and clinical positions. In some fields where women outnumber men, such as nursing, men are still overrepresented in senior roles, and men are paid more than women.

Show me where I’m trying to “push young girls and women into professions that they may not like.”

By the way, since you erroneously use India as an example, women studying science in India actually match the number of men. Plus there is greater gender parity between men and women in other non-Western countries like Iran, across Latin America and in other nations. Nevertheless, women in these nations still face tremendous barriers once they enter the workplace, particularly once they have children, so gender bias is still an issue that needs to be redressed.

I’d welcome you to respond with credible, peer reviewed sources and be sure to explain your thoughts more clearly. Your personal biases against women are not evidence of women being disinterested in science.

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Hi Darren,

CVs often come with accompanying information such as responses to the selection criteria and recommendation letters. These are not presented in Ceci and Williams’ study. Ceci and Williams constructed poorly conceived and leading narratives that encouraged their participants to think about gender issues in hiring in very specific ways, which supported the researchers’ pre-established hypotheses. A better methodology would be to provide the CVs and have participants discuss and debate the merits of the skills presented in the CVs, using methodologies that are well-established in the scientific literature.

Moss-Racusin’s study did not present a narrative that included obviously gendered conditions that Ceci and Williams included – such as the applicant’s family situation. Moss-Racusin provided an application form that was developed with academic experts providing the type of information usually reviewed by hiring panels. I’ve linked to the original study. Have a read.

You perceive a “fatal flaw” with Moss-Racusin’s study, based on your perception that the people who preferred to hire a male applicant may be atypical. Again, read Moss-Racusin’s study which included:

“A broad, nationwide sample of biology, chemistry, and physics professors.” Furthermore: “participants were recruited from six anonymous American universities, all of which were ranked by the Carnegie Foundation as “large, Research University (very high research
productivity)” (2). Additionally, each university had prominent, well-respected science departments (both at the undergraduate and graduate level), and tended to graduate high numbers of students who go on to careers in academic science. The schools were matched for size and prestige, and were selected from three different geographic regions within the United States.”

Why do you think that a widely-cited, reputable study needs to prove gender bias in additional ways to the methodology? The study also draws on wide-ranging empirical literature that demonstrates that gender bias exists in many ways. I have also discussed and linked to studies and resources that explain how gender bias is pervasive and institutional.

Confirmation bias is a phenomenon where individuals reject scientific evidence that contradicts their personal beliefs, such as the belief that gender bias does not exist. Conversely, confirmation bias also leads individuals to believe evidence that validates their subjective world views.

I’ve shown the methodological flaws in Ceci and Williams’ study using established social science. Ceci and Williams are not experts on gender and they have been criticised for their scientific flaws accordingly. The study was published on the author’s own journal, and then widely criticised by the broader scientific community. This is how peer review works: studies may make it through peer review (especially if the authors own the journal) but the peer review process does not end there. Peer review continues as other researchers see the published results, and weigh the evidence presented in light of established theories and methods. Ceci and Williams’ study is a poor example of social science used to advance the authors’ personal or political agendas. That’s not good for science, is it?

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The comedians are just hosts of the documentary, the research is valid and I read your blog post and none of what you state negates any of that but I have several problems with your rhetoric there, it’s quite reaching and you are forming false connections in many cases. The stereotype that men are male that you mention arose from the fact that scientists have always been largely male in the past, this didn’t pop out of thin air, this stereotype was based on reality before the mainstream push to coax women into stem fields. You mention exposure to women scientists in classrooms increases the chance that boys and girls become scientist but you’re making an egregious error here, this is largely in part do to these women entering classrooms and telling children this is what they should aspire to, how many other professions are doing this? If every profession had a representative doing this would the results be the same? I highly doubt it and this is representative of shoddy methodology. And to add to this in societies with higher socio economic statuses for the average individual (that also have a larger prevalence of programs to get women in sciences) the differences in choices between men and women increase rather than decrease, less women go into stem in these situations in comparison to countries like India where these stereotypes are rampant, so you’re plain wrong there. You weigh a lot of your argument on stereotypes and avoid innate preferences. Have you actually asked other women what they like? Both my sisters moved from technical fields(which they got into thinking that’s what women should aspire to) to people oriented fields just because they liked dealing with people more, are you oblivious to the fact women are making these choices in mass, and the choices they are making reflect the data we have on this? Are you going to avoid all the research that proves biology has an effect on behavior as well? The study on identical twins raised in separate environments for example. Are you going to avoid the fact that even though women scientists are visiting classrooms trying to coax them into joining stem, the overwhelming majority of girls in those classrooms still don’t want to go into stem? Are you going to avoid the fact that less women are going into stem than men even though it is much easier for them with the abundance of women only scholarships and other programs as well. Are you also going to avoid the fact that all the research in that Norwegian documentary on biology’s effect on behavior reflect societal structure to a T (which includes societies that have developed in isolation), due you think this is mere coincidence? Are you also going to avoid the fact that there is a massive difference in the literature, music and movie preferences that appeal to one gender over the other? I could go on….You also seem to think equality of outcome is somehow equality, it isn’t and you will have to intentionally discriminate against a group to achieve this which is what is happening now, women only scholarships is an example, it’s disgusting that this is all done in an arbitrary ideal of what some groups thinks equality is. A major problem with your approach is that you assume behavior is purely a product of the environment, we know for a fact this isn’t true. Also under representation doesn’t mean inequality, saying it does is based upon assumptions, women were overwhelmingly represented at the health services at the university of Waterloo where I did my masters from the receptionists to the psychologists present there, does this indicate sexism against men? Of course not. I see in the comments people referring to the bias in resumes, Christina hoff sommers points out the flaws of that research in one of her factual feminist videos or lectures (I don’t remember which one) that the research only highlights the disciplines where there is a bias towards men, they conveniently leave out the other ones where there is a bias towards women, this is disingenuous to say the least. Why are you trying to push young girls and women into professions that they may not like? Don’t you see the problem with that?

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Thanks for the interesting article. I guess I have some questions.
You say the narrative is so far removed from the hiring process that it weakens the study. Isn’t it true that resumes and CVs also come with cover letters, teaching philosophies, recommendation letters, and other items very similar to a “narrative statement”? Even in the Moss-Racusin study about half of the CV page evaluated was “narrative” . Yes, the CV and grades and numbers are important, but they aren’t all important, and I speak from experience when I say in higher education hiring more than the CV is assessed.

You seem knowledgeable on Moss-Racusin as well, so perhaps you can help clear an issue I have with it. This study is often referenced to establish bias in science hiring, but I’m not convinced because of a fatal flaw in the method of the study. I haven’t seen this brought up, and so I wonder whether I’m missing something or am off in some way (and someone can inform me). Here’s the method in a nutshell: about 120 academic faculty professionals were sent identical resumes except for 60 the name was John and for the other 60 the name was Jennifer. Turns out that on average, Jennifer got lower scores and a lower salary offer. The conclusion? Bias against women in hiring. But hold on. How do count out that the 60 that got Jennifer just so happen to be the types of people to undervalue the resume? Without giving the same people the opportunity to show, without a doubt, they give the woman lower scores, how do you discount the possibility that what you’re seeing is just one group giving a higher score for whatever reasons?

Thank you for your time,
Darren

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